tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post8604533506716097222..comments2024-02-26T08:43:47.488-08:00Comments on Domesticated: My Reflection On The Oxford University Study Into Depression and GothThe HouseCathttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07783576090040274742noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-21661156002718432612015-09-02T12:19:24.587-07:002015-09-02T12:19:24.587-07:00The Emos I knew personally did seem to glorify sel...The Emos I knew personally did seem to glorify self-harm, as if it was a badge of honour for 'true suffering' but that may just have been those I interacted with; as I said, I'm no expert on Emos, that is just what my experience of those I knew was. By the sounds of things, those you knew/know have a much more healthy attitude, and if that's representative of Emos as whole, then that's certainly a good thing :) Your experience of Emo is probably much greater than mine if you are a participating member of that subculture rather than a periphery "hanger-on" as I was. We were all alternative, and there wasn't the numbers for individual subcultures to for their own cliques. As I said in my article, I didn't want to make generalisations, this was just what I had observed. I'm not part of their subculture, and I would also imagine that as with many teen groups, the character of localised groups will be quite different between places. <br /><br />In my experience of Goth, I think some elements, like what Emily Autumn does, is a glorification (I used to be a fan, but no longer), but for the most part what I've seen is more a morbid fascination, especially with the sheer horror of how old 19thC and early 20thC institutions were run. <br /><br />I'm not active on Tumblr; I find it has too much drama, and the demographic is mostly teenagers and people in their younger twenties; not really my age-group. I can't really say I've thus encountered anyone like that. Claiming to be a psychopath in that sort of way seems to be sheer shock-value attention seeking, and obnoxiously pretentious. I have met a only one younger Goth who makes some fairly outlandish claims that seem to be aimed at appearing shocking, centred around Nazis, though, rather than psychopathy. I would imagine that there are other younger and also possibly older people who are less mature, who might make these sort of claims for shock value, or to seem edgy or interesting. I wouldn't say it is typical of Goth itself, though, at least not adult Goths. From what I did experience of Tumblr, there were a lot of people there who made up quite outlandishly "special" identities, and this might be part of that broader trend on Tumblr. Shock value seems to be something younger, inexperienced people seeking to be rebellious are drawn to, and as part of identity-forming and development and the turbulence of adolescence, it is understandable (heck, part of why I became a Goth was to shock the conservative establishments around me, but that's not why I stayed), but I think most people mature out of that, and find less oppositional, less provocative ways to project their identity once they feel more secure in themselves and established as a person. The HouseCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783576090040274742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-57752847343790242972015-09-02T07:05:51.968-07:002015-09-02T07:05:51.968-07:00I saw a post about this on my facebook a few days ...I saw a post about this on my facebook a few days ago (I didn't read the article because I knew it would only make me angry)...<br /><br />But I stand by the comment I made there: I think that it's not that goth kids are more likely to be depressed, but that it's more likely for depressed kids to be goth (or to belong to another alternative subculture). <br /><br />I blame this on the fact that mainstream culture has such a focus on being upbeat and happy all the time -- negative emotions, sadness and anger really aren't really as accepted... Whereas there's far less of a focus on that in alternative subcultures.<br /><br />While I can definitely vouch for a glorification of DEPRESSION in the emo community (I was really into the emo community as a teen) -- there's a tendency to glorify mental illness in the goth community as well (this might be more of a tumblrgoth thing but...) I see a lot of "I'M NOT SANE!" "i'M A PSYCHOPATH!" sort of things -- and the romanticization of insane asylums, straight-jackets and the like is also present... <br /><br />I don't think either subculture glorifies self-harm the way a lot of people outside of them seem to believe (I never felt particularly encouraged to self-harm when I was into emo and the friends I made back then were actually some of the happiest/upbeat people I've ever known, lol.)<br /><br />Still, I kind of dislike these kinds of studies -- or at least the way that articles seem to talk about them because it kind of paints the image that there are easily noticed signs of depression... As if a parent can just go "OH MY CHILD IS INTERESTED IN GOTH THEY MUST BE DEPRESSED!" which not only does harm to goths, but does harm to mainstream kids/kids who aren't interested in goth in that their parents are more likely to think they're a-okay...<br /><br />*shrug* IDK,that's kind of just my opinion as someone w/depression and as someone who's been goth and emo in their lifetime.<br /><br />(for what it's worth, my interest in goth definitely went up when my depression started to decrease and I had the confidence to do/dress what/how I want.)RK Canaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02369643770688375438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-58936303377998083962015-09-02T02:31:16.624-07:002015-09-02T02:31:16.624-07:00I certainly think a study on long-term Goths, and ...I certainly think a study on long-term Goths, and on short-term Goths (the ones for whom it actually a phase) and how things pan out for them would be really interesting. The HouseCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783576090040274742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-63321846252192152882015-08-30T11:08:35.763-07:002015-08-30T11:08:35.763-07:00I've always found that empathy is a very stron...I've always found that empathy is a very strong trait among the goths I've known; not that I've known many. Perhaps it's not a strong enough correlation...<br /><br />It would be fascinating to see a study done on goths who have been at it a long time. I wonder how much of that data will change.Madame Mari Mortemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14092879436628518422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-12823266963315568732015-08-29T12:21:52.540-07:002015-08-29T12:21:52.540-07:00It lacks the context to explain the correlation, b...It lacks the context to explain the correlation, but I don't think it is wrong in picking up on the correlation; the problem will be those who use that correlation to perpetuate the stereotypes. We are not all depressed. I actually wrote a detailed article on that a while back, and so I won't repeat myself here. Goth is not a symptom of depression, even if it can be welcoming for those suffering from depression and other troubles. We're Goth because we find the beauty in the darkness, we have a shared aesthetic, a morbid curiosity, and various outlooks on life that have those threads that connect us to this artistic movement and subculture that is Goth. The HouseCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783576090040274742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-59625951945925759712015-08-29T12:17:03.982-07:002015-08-29T12:17:03.982-07:00I agree that teenagers do definitely have a lot of...I agree that teenagers do definitely have a lot of life changes and changes in hormones and neurodevelopment that can lead to a lot of difficult times, but I also think that there are teenagers who are also suffering from mental illnesses such as depression , with a broader range of causes and aggravating factors; personal circumstance and bullying being two frequent ones, as well as those who have the misfortune to have a neurochemical, autogenic sort of depression. I don't think that Goth CAUSES depression, but I do think that it can provide a less judgemental, emotionally open community that is not afraid to face darker issues and discuss them, and that this could be quite welcoming and helpful for depressed teens, especially those who feel like they are outsiders, and who find the darker content of Goth cathartic, sympathetic, or just simply have those sorts of tastes. As such, I think it is not that Goth teens risk depression, but that depressed teens may be attracted to Goth. The HouseCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783576090040274742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-74220892517894274842015-08-29T11:46:20.797-07:002015-08-29T11:46:20.797-07:00Also, your comment was readable and coherent, and ...Also, your comment was readable and coherent, and the typos were only noticed after you'd pointed them out to me! Don't worry :) The HouseCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783576090040274742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-77618031767753077782015-08-29T11:45:38.827-07:002015-08-29T11:45:38.827-07:00The researchers themselves seemed to want to see i...The researchers themselves seemed to want to see if there was a correlation or not, but not necessarily because they were looking to prove Goths are all depressed. It didn't seem that they personally drew those conclusions, just that from the small number of Goths asked, a higher than average percentage of Goths were showing signs of depression. They actually made pains to say that correlation did not equate to causation in this, but I don't think they really understood what causes this correlation, nor tried to study it. I have met a higher than average number of Goths with depression, but I've only been a Goth half as long as you have (approximately) and may have been exposed to both a younger demographic, and one that is primarily UK based. I would certainly be quick to say that Goths are a very varied bunch and we are certainly not ALL depressed, or all mentally ill - but I do think that the more emotionally open and less judgemental (in that respect) aspects of the Goth culture, plus the cathartic and positive effects the subculture and its content can have (finding solace in realising your experience are not utterly unique, breaking down social isolation, finding catharsis is some of the darker content, etc.) means that it can be attractive to people who are experiencing those kinds of problems. I agree that we are different and we know it, and one conclusion I have seen that may actually reflect reality a bit more is that is that sense of outsider status and isolation that both aggravates a propensity for depression and inclines one to be Goth, especially if the reasons for that outsider status is a having a more unusual way of looking at the world that is tinged with morbid curiosity, an appreciation for darker things, etc. This was actually discussed by the researchers, and it was mentioned (I think in the accompanying audio interview with Dr. Bowes) that those who became Goth had a begun to be outsiders since at least 8, and had higher-than-average rates of bullying long before they were Goth. <br /><br />I have had plenty of conversations on public transport that have weirded out people with me, because I sometimes forget that what is ordinary conversation amongst my circle of friends is a bit dark by more mundane standards! Alas that some people listen and are rude about it :( The HouseCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783576090040274742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-38080554468971546922015-08-29T11:14:05.495-07:002015-08-29T11:14:05.495-07:00Mind the typos. I really should proofread my comme...Mind the typos. I really should proofread my comments! Sheeze. Doctor Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10990742017081696114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-10011425665845029982015-08-29T11:12:46.380-07:002015-08-29T11:12:46.380-07:00I am thrilled that you addressed this because I, t...I am thrilled that you addressed this because I, too, found the study to be limited in scope and biased. As a Goth who is 43 and who has been in the punk rock/goth/alternative subculture since I was 13, I can say that Goths are no more depressed than regular people. The last 30 years of my life in the subculture has taught me that: some people are depressed, some aren't. Some people are introverted, some are extroverted. Some are reserved, some are perky ... etc. etc. The one thing that Goths are (over other people) is fiercely independent, free thinkers and problem solvers. We're different. We know it. We choose to be this way and therefore, we had to grow a really thick skin ... and we like it that way. We are also find humor in things that other people find taboo. For example, just this morning over breakfast Ed and I seriously discussed what we want to do with our bodies when we die. Seriously. It wasn't emotional. It wasn't creepy. It was matter-of-fact -- we are both eco-conscious and support eco-friendly burial practices. The person sitting next to us in the diner was HORRIFIED and she said so. Our answer: we're all going to die. Might as well make your plans now so that you get what you want. She was not happy.<br /><br />Anyway, the "scientists" wanted to find Goths as depressed creatures and they did. Most kids I know are going through so many hormonal changes, of course they're going to be depressed and funky! <br /><br />Again, thanks for addressing this.Doctor Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10990742017081696114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-20340768645033170292015-08-29T07:56:19.237-07:002015-08-29T07:56:19.237-07:00I think your concerns are well founded, HouseCat. ...I think your concerns are well founded, HouseCat. Even if the study was done honestly, there are those who will use it to denigrate our existence and subculture. That said, I don't think that those not involved in the subculture can ever fully understand what motivates us. We are simply wired differently. <br /><br />I have long believed that science tends to break things down to their smallest components. That's not necessarily the way to look at things in every situation. Sometimes a more all-encompassing, holistic approach is needed or at least, a balance between the two. That's what I think the above-mentioned study lacks. <br /><br />It was good to see you back here.Nightwindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148270720593016700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5406319356659344188.post-38104883983464763882015-08-29T05:04:58.808-07:002015-08-29T05:04:58.808-07:00I could not agree more! I believe that the teenage...I could not agree more! I believe that the teenage years of a person are either way confusing and tend to get depressive that has nothing to do with the subculture they belong to.<br /><br />unknownprettylies.blogspot.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com